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03 October 2008 @ 09:37 pm
Incest in My Canon?  
So, anyone who pays any attention at all to Supernatural canon or fandom knows that incest is part of the package deal. We get an awesome soundtrack, a kick-ass car, supernatural bad guys, and incestuous (or vaguely incestuous) heroes. It's all good. It's why we're here. (Actually, I'm mostly here because of the music and the car, but the mythology and the incest keep cropping up.)

Now, to recap: Bugs (1.08) is, I believe, the first time anyone thinks that the boys are sleeping together (that we see on screen). Sam and Dean are informed, several times, that the housing complex is welcoming to people of all sexual orientations. And then Dean slaps Sam's ass and calls him honey. This pattern continues. In Something Wicked (1.18), Michael, the young boy at the motel, asks the now famous question, "Two queens or a king?" and then, when Dean responds, "Two queens," says, "Sure, I'll bet." In Playthings (2.11), Susan asks if they're antiquing and Sherman, the bellboy, shares this assumption. Dean can't imagine why everyone thinks they're gay, but Sam suggests, "Well, you are kind of butch. Maybe they think you're overcompensating." In A Very Supernatural Christmas (3.08), Dean and Sam pose as a gay couple when inquiring about Christmas wreaths. In Lazarus Rising (4.01), we get more of this. Pamela offers to have a threesome with Sam and Dean and Kristy (Ruby?) asks, "So, are you two, like, together?" ("What? No, no, he's my brother." "Oh, I got it... I guess.")

I'm going to disappoint everyone in fandom before I get any further and say that I don't think Sam and Dean are having crazy, mad, incestuous sex. Really, I don't. And that's not what this meta is about.

However, after talking this over with several people, I do think they're romantically involved with one another and that is, arguably, a form of incest. They are, I argue, romantically involved with one another to the exclusion of romantic involvement with others.

Romance, you say, in my Supernatural? It's more likely than you think.

For one, there's the romance of Dean's pendant. Dean doesn't take it off and views it as a violation when it is removed from him (Skin, 1.06). We learn that it was a gift from Sam, originally intended for John (A Very Supernatural Christmas, 3.08). When Dean dies, Sam won't even let it be buried with Dean's body and, instead, wears it next to his skin (Lazarus Rising, 4.01). Upon Dean's return to life, Sam gives it back and Dean is pleased that Sam has been keeping it safe.

When one can't sleep, the other tends to keep watch and look after the first's sleep habits. When Sam has nightmares after Jessica's death, Dean is always there, ready to help him out. On the few occasions Dean has had sleeping troubles, Sam has been there for him. When Sam had his visions, Dean was always there, ready to hold him and help him and talk him through it and help him save people. (This is important, considering that Dean is suspicious of everything he can't fully comprehend, including angels.)

Sam gives up his dreams of a normal life - or adjusts his life dreams - for Dean. While he does initially return to hunting to avenge Jessica's death, he, at first, makes it clear that he wants to go back to his normal life when the Yellow Eyed Demon (Azazel) is dead. However, when Dean shoots Azazel with the Colt, Sam continues to hunt. Even after Dean's death (both in Mystery Spot, 3.11, and No Rest for the Wicked, 3.16), he continues to hunt. His life plans have adjusted to include Dean's.

They have trouble living without one another. Normally this is described as codependence, which it is to a certain extent, but it can also be viewed as a form of devoted romance. They, by the end of season two, cannot bear to be parted. When they are forcibly separated, bad things happen. The most obvious examples are, of course, the deaths of Sam and Dean. Dean can't imagine a world without Sam. That is a world in which he cannot bear living. Sam, as we see in Mystery Spot (3.11) and Lazarus Rising (4.01), shuts down into a sort of unemotional trauma victim. But, even beyond that, when they are still alive separation is difficult. In Sin City (3.04), Sam completely freaks out when Dean disappears with the possessed woman and in The Magnificent Seven (3.01), Sam refuses Dean's fairly rational offer of saving Sam and Bobby and sacrificing his already doomed self.

As Bobby tells them in Tall Tales (2.15), Sam and Dean are like an old married couple. They argue; they fight; they have their differences. Sam has demon blood. Dean was chosen by angels. Yet, they cannot imagine life or the world without one another. Even after separation, death, or hell, they move as a unit. They save each other. They manfully share their lives. While they both have sexual encounters with various women on the road, they don't need someone else emotionally. Sam doesn't, as far as I can tell as a viewer, long for the comfort and pleasure of having a long-term relationship with someone anymore. Dean, in my eyes, hasn't desired that since the beginning of the series. The romance is in the little things, like in any relationship. The food they buy. The car. The hugs. The fact that they're apparently named after a married couple.

Now, you say, that's all very lovely, but why talk about this now?

Last night, I watched In the Beginning (4.03) rather than look at Palin's face, like many other Supernatural fans. And while I do stand by my theory that the angel or demons are not the same as the bodies they possess, the incestuous overtones of this episode is undeniable. So let's analyse it.

It begins, for me, not in the Marty McFly dinner, but after Samuel has been possessed by Azazel.

Samuel has pinned Dean, in the chair to the wall, and asks, "Oh, hey, if that slug (slut?) marries your mommy, are you one of my psychic kids?" He then leans over Dean and proceeds to smell him up. I was half expecting to see Mitch Pileggi's tongue licking Dean's neck. (And not because I'm a sick fuck. That scene is creepy.) This is the body, at least, of Dean's grandfather, sniffing him up and pinning him to the wall and covering him with his body. Also, Samuel's not dead yet, so Grandpa gets to know all of this.

Check it out:


Azazel-as-Samuel then pontificates as to why he's hanging around Lawrence, Kansas in 1973 instead of slaughtering goats on the Arabian Peninsula (blah blah Master Race blah blah). He then explains, "They're ideal breeders. Oh, get your mind out of the gutter. No one's breeding with me. Though Mary? Man! I'd like to make an exception. So far, she's my favorite."

Okay. I get that this is Azazel talking and Samuel probably doesn't want to jump his daughter. While Samuel and Mary seem to have their issues, it doesn't seem like incest is one of them. However, Azazel is using Samuel's body to explain to Samuel's grandson that he'd like to breed with Mary, Samuel's daughter and Dean's mother. I don't care how you spin it, that's deeply wrong. If Azazel bones Mary using Samuel that is, still, a form of incest. Potentially non-consenual incest on both parts? Ewwww.

After Azazel-as-Samuel breaks John's neck and argues a bit with a distressed Mary (a tableau that looks very similar to Dean holding Sam's body at the end of season two), he offers her, "Let's kiss and make up." And then that's just what they do. Azazel-as-Samuel is kissing Samuel's daughter. I do realise that demons kiss to seal deals, but the kiss Dean shared with the Cross Roads Demons was significantly less intense than the one shared between Mary and Azazel-as-Samuel.


Dean is clearly horrified, realising at last that his mother made a deal (and made out with Grandpa):


Now, I haven't been able to come to any clear conclusions about what all of the incest means in this show. It is there and I don't think that it is just a case of fans seeing what they want to see. I've been making jokes about incest being a family value for the Campbell-Winchesters, but there is a point here. There's incest and it's here for all to see.

Chekov's gun states, "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired." This pistol hasn't just been hanging on the wall since the first act, people have been commenting on what a nice pistol it is since then. And last night, someone took the pistol off the wall, played with it, and put it back up there. I don't know what it means, but I'm going to be mighty interested to see this particular pistol fire.

ETA: I am clearly losing my mind, because I missed a major line of incest. Dean/Mary. Dean thinks his mom is hot, vocalises it, and thinks that Sam would share his point of view. ("Sam, wherever you are, Mom is hot. And I'm going to hell... again.") While this is a very true fact - Amy Gumenick is gorgeous - Dean, though he clearly realises this is a 'wrong' thought, doesn't seem to be terribly bothered by the fact that he finds his own mother attractive. This deserves more thought.
the gay fresh sentiment of the road: contemplativecontemplative
(Deleted comment)
Chasechik: yellow eyeschasingtides on October 4th, 2008 02:06 am (UTC)
You only say that because you assist in my brain spawning these things.

Seriously, I'm prepared for "demon blood causes incestuous tendencies" fic and/or canon.
(no subject) - jensenrick on October 4th, 2008 03:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
wow, totally67 on October 4th, 2008 02:07 am (UTC)
.....:D I enjoyed this a whole lot, bb.
Chasechik: sparkle highwaychasingtides on October 4th, 2008 02:09 am (UTC)
You just like incest. I know you and your dirty mind.
(no subject) - 67 on October 4th, 2008 02:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chasingtides on October 4th, 2008 02:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
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Chasechik: white maskchasingtides on October 4th, 2008 02:17 am (UTC)
Well, I think they're totally emotionally tied up in one another and that it sometimes (though not always) enacts itself in behavioral patterns normally viewed by our society as romantic. I don't think they think of it as romantic. If that makes sense.

And the incest has been a flag that's waved around a lot. I don't think they're going to get down and dirty ever, but there's got to be a reason for it all.

Edited at 2008-10-04 02:19 am (UTC)
batgurl10batgurl10 on October 4th, 2008 02:19 am (UTC)
not just that...((although that was awesome))

remember the boy with the dead farmer dad? Wouldnt he have had to kiss the "guy" he made the deal with?

so sneaky yet blatent! Man, I love El kripmaster!! :-)
Chasechik: gold maskchasingtides on October 4th, 2008 02:20 am (UTC)
Sneaky 1970's Kansas homosexual tendencies?
aimeewinchester on October 4th, 2008 02:36 am (UTC)
You've totally posted my thoughts! Would it be completely crazy to think that, perhaps down the road when everything comes to a head, Dean will have to kiss Sam in order to save him/break a deal/make a deal/etc??? Or is that just one of my twisted thoughts coming up......
Chasechik: jochasingtides on October 4th, 2008 02:39 am (UTC)
Well, they've crossed the incest line. And arguably, even though it is heterosexual, a father/daughter kiss is more problematic than a brother/brother kiss. (And you know, Sam and/or Dean can't talk about making babies with each other as far as I know.)
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zillah975 on October 4th, 2008 11:52 pm (UTC)
Your icon. I can't place the scene! Help?
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - zillah975 on October 5th, 2008 02:50 am (UTC) (Expand)
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Chasechik: green carchasingtides on October 4th, 2008 03:30 am (UTC)
Sam went to Stanford. Are you suggesting he never even thought about experimenting in college? Come on! :)
Άγαπε δέ μή έχω: SPN - Sam's shoemosaic on October 4th, 2008 03:40 am (UTC)
While I have a problem with you saying that incest is "all good" and "why we're here," I agree with you about Sam and Dean's relationship. My last quarter of college, I wrote a paper about incest in 19th century American literature. I wrote about Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The House of the Seven Gables" and Poe's "The Fall of the House of Usher." I don't want to bore you with the details, but it was pretty much the same thing. The family members in the stories are so obsessed with each other that they don't marry or seek out any other relationships, romantic or platonic. In fact, they hole themselves up in their respective houses and hide away from the world to be with their family members. While sex is implied in Poe's short story, Hawthorne's novel is all about the emotional and mental connection, nothing physical. I think that Sam and Dean have a very similar connection, though of course not going as far with it as the characters in the stories I've mentioned.

The other thing that I want to comment on is the fact that the incestuous scenes in "In the Beginning" are all perpetuated by a demon. Mary and Dean are the victims of the sin/crime. Yes, Mary seems to be willingly kissing her father's lips, but it isn't because she wants to (I assume); it's because he's forced her into that decision by killing everyone she loves. We never see the good guys perpetuating the acts of incest. To me, that indicates that (physical) incest is something done by evil creatures, not something that good people do. It's painted in a negative light and it's certainly not glorified in any way.

But I must admit, there is a bit of a paradox there when physical incest is seen as evil and wrong and emotional incest has been shown to us from the two protagonists since day one. Interesting.
Jessjessicamee on October 4th, 2008 03:56 am (UTC)
i agree, and also i love the way you say "emotional wincest." it exists! (emotionally)
that's just awesome.
(no subject) - chasingtides on October 4th, 2008 03:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
Jess: lovejessicamee on October 4th, 2008 03:54 am (UTC)
i LOVE the relationship between Sam and Dean, but the stuff with grampa Samuel just grossed me out. that's just nasty. WRONG WINCEST, KRIPKE!!! evil bastard is teasing us.
Lissa: Dean - Bluebc_calling on October 4th, 2008 04:36 am (UTC)
Just a thought, but isn't incest a pretty common theme in gothic literature? And Supernatural is, essentially, a pretty gothic text, so it does make sense in context...

But anyway, fascinating argument. I may need to borrow some of your thoughts for the paper I'm writing this semester (with appropriate quotes and citations, of course).
Chasechik: jochasingtides on October 4th, 2008 12:51 pm (UTC)
Incest is actually a pretty common theme in a couple of genres, but it is one of the "problematic loves" in gothic lit (and maybe romantic? it's been ages since I've done non-medieval lit).

The thing that surprises me about the emotional incest between Sam and Dean (as opposed to normal themes of incest in standard Gothic literature) is that it doesn't appear to be a forbidden thing that will one day come to light and rain horror upon them. Everybody knows about their romance, whether it's Bobby, their surrogate father; the Trickster, their enemy but potentially an ally in this war between heaven and hell; the random people they meet during case work. This emotional incest is, probably, the only thing keeping them sane and certainly the only reason they're alive today. (Dean sacrifices himself at the end of season two, but in Faith, 1.12, Sam doesn't care if others die and unwittingly and unwillingly give their lives for Dean's.)

The show would have ended a long time ago if they weren't buoying each other up with their emotional entanglement.

Feel free to quote me, if you like. (I'm blushing that you might want to use this for a paper.)
(no subject) - bc_calling on October 4th, 2008 04:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Bow: SPN-Dude where's the pie?bowie28 on October 4th, 2008 04:58 am (UTC)
Thanks for this. I love literary analysis.
pixie AKA Maleficent: Leighton [bw]static_pixie on October 4th, 2008 05:00 am (UTC)
I mean (and I feel like you must have pointed this out somewhere or just expected everyone to get it) last night Mary was in Dean's place and John was in Sam's which goes even further down the incest road.

I'm not going to talk about Wuthering Heights. I always talk about Wuthering Heights as it relates to the boys though I have yet to choose who's Cathy and who's Heathcliffe.

Anyway, this meta is completely awesome and your points are all so well thought-out. I mean, Dean has been constantly aligned with their mother and Sam with their father, in temperament and this episode just took that further as you pointed out by lining them up with another couple. And a love that goes beyond even death is generally reserved for couples. It's a Western, I guess it kind of had to end up with romantic undertones, siblings or not.

And there are moments where they have Dean consciously rejecting a long-term relationship with a woman (with kids) in favor of Sam and his life on the road. And while I think both the women and the children were meant to be representative of a certain lifestyle, I also think they simply are what they are to some degree. I think the only hitch in it, really, is Dean's dependence on Sam to validate his existence, because that is co-dependence right there and that's unhealthy. I think they're slowly trying to unravel that part of it, though, so who knows. It was all kind of a joke until the Trickster made it serious, so it could be the emotional gun on the mantle, you're right.
Aclipsie on October 4th, 2008 06:38 am (UTC)
*Applause* Thank you for this. This was so wonderful, and you are exactly right.
Live like you mean it and love til you feel it: Sam Dean [looking at you]rei17 on October 4th, 2008 07:58 am (UTC)
Love your meta and you´re so very right about everything.
Dean and Sam absolutely share a kind of deep and romantic love - even though I agree with and don´t think they´re having crazy, mad, incestuous sex either.
But they´re kind of exclusive in a way since they don´t love anybody else the way they love each other.

Wincest has always been kind of canon ... ;P
Yes this really is Mer: ruby = lilithmeredith_ on October 4th, 2008 08:08 am (UTC)
Let's not forget that Dean was lusting after his mom's younger self when he first saw her...

On a completely unrelated note, I had this dream last night that Kripke decided to make wincest a canon thing. MAYBE I'M HAVING A PREMONITION HERE FOLKS. (I wish).
Sharon: SPN - No_get_LJstopwatch_plz on October 4th, 2008 09:15 am (UTC)
MAYBE I'M HAVING A PREMONITION HERE FOLKS. - OMG you are one of the YEDs Psychic Kids!


I'm totally buying your vision though ;)